Peppy ([info]peppygrowlithe) wrote,
  • Mood: sad
  • Music: Tracy Chapman - Rape of the World

Gods, what a day.

Heck with the world, I hate being introspective, because I don't feel like it's me making the thoughts.



It's funny how all of this got started thanks to World of Warcraft.

So I'm on an RP server, but I love PvPing. That means killing other players from the opposite faction, particularly in a capture-the-flag-esque game called Warsong Gulch. Of course, my character is a druid. While this wouldn't bring me hesitation any other time, I felt it would be best if I should think up some in-character rationality as to why my druid (who indeed values life and considers it among the most miraculous things the Earth Mother ever bestowed upon us) is has rank of Sergeant. For those not in the know, that pretty much means "killed a hell of a lot".

In the end, I think I determined how he'd go about it, but it did quite unfortunately get me thinking about a very puzzling question for me.

To me, is the actual concept of "life" more important than how you live it? For particular instance, what if I magically knew that I had a decision? One depressed person could die so that three neutral people would become happy for the rest of their lives. I know it's sort of an odd thing to consider, but when you really start to think about it, you wonder. Do you personally have the right to choose who should die or who should live? Conceptually, I think everybody wants to say no, but I'd be hard pressed to say Stevie Nicks, for example, would be better off dead. I simply can't process that in my mind. I could think of a thousand reasons why Stevie Nicks, simply put, is a "better human being" than... I don't know, pick somebody you honestly don't like. I'm going to say Sadaam Hussein, although bear with me and read on later, I'm going to regret using his name. I think "most people" would probably agree with me, that Sadaam Hussein deserves to die before... Stevie Nicks, or Morgan Freeman, or I don't know. Pick somebody in your head, somebody you can't think of any reason to hate them for.

I, at least, am of the opinion that life has value but living has more, and I think there is a clear difference. I not only believe some people should die so that others may live, I believe that some people should die not so that others may simply live but rather so that others will live happier even if their lives weren't necessarily threatened. I think a lot of people would (rightfully so) disagree with me upon this concept, but it's something I hold in my head and, at least for the time being, stick to to a reasonable degree.

It is in this respect that I can, at least in part, understand terrorism. I wonder how many eyebrows went up. Sometimes, I wonder if some of us really do deserve to just die. I assure you that a substantial portion of Americans killed in terrorist activities fall victim to a number of the things I'm going to mention in the next paragraph.

The American public these days are whiny. We're arrogant. We're ignorant. We're lazy. We're stupid. We're stubborn. We're conformists. We're desensitized. We cling far too strongly to social values that, when looked at by an objective eye, don't make sense. Terrorists see this (thanks to our position in the world and our technology, it's easy for us to broadcast it out), do these assholish things to kill us, and then we only display these characteristics further. How many people have an unyieldingly stubborn - but ignorant to the facts - opinion of the war in the middle east, regardless of whether they say 'stay or go'? How often do people just use it as an excuse to bitch incessantly, usually about the government? How many people wail helplessly at the hundreds of American lives lost and yet not give a crap about the tens of thousands we're killing over there?

Before I could fully even work all this out, I moved into a subject that interests me more. This sort of ignorance is just as easily displayed in our treatment of non-human life. The most popular religion in America even revolves around us and only us having souls, after all. We happily rape the Earth without respect not just for the fluffy and cute animals, but for every little living thing.

I always sound like some sort of crackpot when I say this, and I know precisely how inane it sounds, but why do you as a human being have the right to kill millions of bacterial cells every minute? A single bacteria is one entity of life. You as a whole are one organism, one entity of life, and yet you likely possess no compassion for that. Vegetarians who eat simply because they don't want to hurt animals kill plants instead, the big moral issue being that animals can think and plants can't. Last time I checked, sentience isn't the only thing that's determining whether something is alive. (Incidentally, for those who eat veggies just for the health benefits, I got no beef with you. Ha ha! Look, beef, I made a funny! Even my angsty posts have amusement!) People do it out of guilt, I presume, but as is the problem with every decision made through emotion and not through reason, there's very little backing it when you look at it from an objective eye.

Does anybody get what point I'm making? It's not that we should treat every little thing with love and compassion; it's that we shouldn't be hypocritical in making our decisions. You need to work out your values and think them through, particularly for the things you hold most dear in your life (be it politics, religion, social relationships, or anything). People who hunt animals every weekend but protest in front of abortion clinics make no sense to me. Big-time corporation owners who cut dozens of jobs so they can have a more expensive vacation and yet go to church devoutly every Sunday make no sense to me. Those who say they value life but only do it because it seems like "the right thing to do"...

Well, they do make sense to me, because I'm one of them. But when I really think about it, it doesn't make sense at all.

I am an entertainer. If I was put here on this Earth by somebody bigger and better than myself, then it was done so that I may make life happier for other people. I love it when I make people happy; I love it when people accept me; I love knowing I'm making a difference, and I don't mind working hard to do it. I do mind, however, the actual "setting up" of it. If this makes sense, I hate working my way into the hearts of people, even though once I'm in there, it's all good for everybody. I can be a bit of a manipulative person, but I wouldn't consider myself "bad". I don't think I'd ever use somebody in a way that would cause them great harm or probably not even mild harm. But I can reap the side benefits, particularly if we both get something out of it in the end.

And yet who am I entertaining? I'm entertaining a species I find worlds upon worlds less interesting than the countless others of this planet. Human social behavior is one of the most boring things imaginable, because there's nothing remotely concrete about it. There are so many exceptions to the rule - or rather, they'll have you believe that there are deviants from the one "true" path that either nobody has found, or nobody is willing to accept. Animal biology, however, tends to be a little less open to interpretation, due in part to the fact that multiple things do in. Why does Animal X do this? It's because blah, blah, blah, and blah. Why does Human X do this? He may be blah, or he may be blah, because people who do blah have blah unless they're blah, or he might be blah. Biology piles up; every new theory improves the current ones. Social studies conflict; they don't get anywhere, particularly if the public can't handle the truth.

I believe that given the current state of the world, advancements (if we must advance) in science are going to solve our problems quicker than advancements in arts, social sciences, entertainment, businesses, and so forth. People could probably argue with me for hours over it. I say go for it. I'd be lying if I said scientists weren't in it for the money (major props to the first person who can cheaply cure AIDS), but it seems, at least from this outside perspective, that scientists care more deeply about the power of knowledge and the study of the world than most other professions do about their particular crafts. (It may only be because I share this love, however; I simply might not be able to see that the corporation owner does it because he's devoutly interested in economy, or the politician genuinely wants to make a positive difference in the government.)

Learning about what makes things tick doesn't take away the wonder for me. It enhances it. Knowing what makes up my cell, what the meaning of life in a Darwinian sense is, knowing how the universe most likely came about, knowing what makes up every fiber of my being ruins it for a lot of people, who would rather keep the world shrouded in mystique. It entrances me. I don't believe there's a designer, but I do believe there's a miraculous design in both living and non-living things which makes it all the more spectacular. My favorite part in all science is when you learn something that's so very obvious and right in front of your face and makes perfect sense, and yet you didn't realize it until you were told. It's an amazing feeling for me, and it's hit me so many times and builds up so much each time that I'm firmly confident in my decision to be a science major.

But what am I going to do with it? I want to make a positive impact on the world. Do I consider that more important, however, than my social thoughts on the world: that happiness is key? That if I'm unhappy, I need to work until I am? That if I can make somebody else happy, I'm doing "right" in the world? That my own happiness is important, too? Can I really make an impact in the science world if I demand a certain amount of free time for myself? Not to mention, is there anything I can truly fight for?

I just don't know anything, and that's precisely it. I personally believe that there's very little to fear about the recent o-zone crisis, but most people are very concerned. When I thought about it and learned about how dramatically the earth's temperature has changed year to year in the past, I began to wonder if that's not the only "good sounding" thing that deserves to be questioned. In the end, I realized that unlike in the movies, there's nothing in this world that's definitely good. I could probably be convinced easily that the destruction of the rainforests is not necessarily a bad thing. It's furthering economy in both America and other countries, it's not greatly reducing the oxygen content (more than 99% of the world's oxygen comes from algae), and it's keeping advancements in all formats going (because we do need paper). Is that more important to me than the death of countless animals, plants, fungi, bacteria and stuff?

Simply put, who do I need to support more: the species I am, or all the others?

(To keep it "simple", we'll pretend that if we run out of one resource, we find a more expensive but usable alternative, so "inevitable demise" doesn't cloud up the question I'm really asking myself here.)

I'm just so lost, and it doesn't help that I simply don't have the will to dedicate time to it. I'm a busy person... Working about 30 hours a week, going to school twice, and this is my vacation time, when school is less than half as busy. Should I be chewing away from time spent RPing or talking with friends or watching movies or playing games so that I can actually help to make an impact which may or may not even be for the better in the end?

I keep asking myself these questions, and I never get anywhere with it. I just mope and sigh and feel extremely guilty until I wake up in the morning, and suddenly, the only life that matters is a human life, and I feel great and happy. I'm going to the Seaquarium with Kim tomorrow, then I'm going to go play lazertag, then maybe I'll come home and RP or something. Cara's coming this weekend. I can and do feel happy... but in the end, guilty.

Ever wish you could just "know"? Wish that you knew the truth? I don't mind working hard; I just mind figuring out what to work hard for. Cut my work out for me, I'll do it from there. I don't mind working hard at my job, but the thought of -finding- another job gives me a deadened, sad feeling. I just wish somebody would hand me a small list of jobs I could do in my science field. I choose one, go to work the next day, the end. That's honestly how I feel, which is why I kind of wish communism worked outside of pure theory.

It's just, in a society that cares more about who Tom Cruise is dating than the rape of the Everglades...

And then me internally wondering if the rape of the Everglades truly is an issue that does, should, and can concern me, then wondering what I can do to help without regretting it...

Gods, I hate thinking!

Meh.



Hee. I just looked this over. There's absolutely no sense of organization, which is the way I like my posts. I just write what comes into my head. I'd be a crappy, crappy journalist. :>

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  • 11 comments

[info]firebyrd

July 18 2005, 21:19:40 UTC 6 years ago

I don't know if my comment is going to be much more coherent than your post, but here goes. :)

I think we absolutely have the right to decide whether someone deserves to die or not if they are a person that is threatening to the lives of others. Using your own example of Saddam Hussein, I think he should die, for all the people he has killed unjustly and for the people he would continue to kill if he had the chance. In fact, and I'm probably going to raise some eyebrows here, I think that if rape is indeed a power thing and the sex has nothing to do with it, serial rapists deserve to die. If it is indeed a sex thing, I'm quite content with the thought of castration.

And actually, I understand what the terrorists are doing. They're killing us because they think we're evil. I happen to think that, to some extent, they're wrong (though to some extent, they're also right). However, since most of us aren't murderers or serial rapists, I happen to believe that most of us don't deserve to die.

And I think that vegetarians who are vegetarians because "they don't want to kill anything" are complete and total hypocrites. If they admit it, though, it doesn't bother me so much. But other than the photosynthetic and chemosynthetic organisms on this planet, every single living thing has to have something die for it to live. That's how it is. And since we are omnivores, I don't care what veggies say-the healthiest diet for us is going to include some sort of animal protein. It's how we evolved.

You're also making a very poor comparison. You cannot compare biology to human social behavior. That's comparing apples and rocks. You have to compare human social behavior to animal social behavior, and when you do so, you find out that actually, non-human animals can be just as unpredictable as human ones. I'm well aware that many classes give you the impression that things are concrete and we know what we're talking about, but for the most part, it's still up in the air, especially where behavior is concerned.

Many (I don't know the numbers, so I hesitate to say most, but there's a large number) of scientists aren't "in it" for the money. That's absurd. The ones that are do tend to study things like AIDs. Your university professors? They're not. They're in it because they love to learn and/or they love to teach. You think there's much money in my professor studying the waterfowl that nest in the area? Nope. You think there's money in it for the people going down to South America and studying the parrots at the clay licks? Nope. In fact, they have to get tourists to help them with their research, because that means there's someone doing work that isn't getting paid for it.

"what the meaning of life in a Darwinian sense is"-what the hell does that mean? Science does not define the meaning of life, nor does it try to. Science is about the hows. Philosophy and religion is about the whys.

Dude, the destruction of the rain forests does nothing for us as Americans, and is likely going to be bad for the people in the countries doing it in the long run. The soil is poor anyway, so isn't good for crops or grazing, and we're destroying species that may have enormous impact on us. We don't freaking get paper from those trees. Our paper is made from trees grown and harvested for that very reason. For that reason, and many others, some articles I read recently were very convincing that recycling in general is stupid, because it uses more energy than it saves.

"Ever wish you could just "know"? Wish that you knew the truth?" You probably think I'm deluding myself, but that's one of the great comforts of religion. I don't know all the details, but I know enough of the overarcing stuff that this is a despair I rarely encounter. Job searching often does suck, though.

http://www.tomcruiseisnuts.com

[info]peppygrowlithe

July 18 2005, 22:04:23 UTC 6 years ago

Making gross generalizations is one of my favorite hobbies, of course!

I have a tendency to say the first thing that pops into my head when I'm trying to prove an unrelated point. I don't think the rainforests should be destroyed; the point I wanted to make was spot on with your recycling comparison, and my cloudy and 'emotional' (GAG ME) post wasn't able to think up an analogy so well. I think 99.9% of the American public is completely and totally for recycling, or at least not against it. I had never considered that recycling could be a bad thing until that one little sentence made me question it. That's kind of what I wanted to say, and that's what I meant when I asked if you could just know.

I was to know the truth. Is recycling more harmful than it is helpful? Who can I trust? Where can I go to find this information?

Is George Bush truly responsible for A, B, C, and D? Who can I trust? Where can I go to find this information?

I find that I can't honestly trust anything that isn't a textbook, and of course, feel free to jump on my ass about the fact that 80-90% of what's currently printed in textbooks will be in the future modified, whether slightly or significantly, in the future. I don't know anything for fact, but I would, at least, like to know a lot of key things. I'd like to know how third-world countries perceive us, why, and what we can do to stop that. I'd like to know which environmental concerns are most worthy of notice (because as it stands, I seem to pay no attention to any - ack!). I'd like to know... I don't know, I want to have my comfort zone shaken up. Convince me that drugs are good or that drinking and driving isn't a bad thing and it's a common public misconception. I read a very convincing argument that showed that except in somewhat extreme cases, a little second-hand smoke can actually help to make lungs stronger in the long run. Is that the reality of the situation? Hell, I don't know. But it is a possible conflict to something that I've always considered one way and never even bothered with the opposite.

On the case of deciding who threatens the lives of others, again, that's a point in my post. We threaten the lives of non-humans every day, so do we all deserve to die? Sadly, I guess we only have the "decision" to chose to kill or not for other humans, because it almost just seems like "If we have the power to kill non-humans, go for it". Even that said, what about people who do very bad things without actually threatening life? Or how much of a threat? Sadaam was a pretty extreme example, though.

The "meaning of life in a Darwinian sense" was more or less hopping upon the whole "passing your genes on", environmental adaption, blah blah, but I'm absolutely and utterly positive you're going to gawk at me and say I'm confusing "meaning" with something completely and entirely different. ;)

To be honest (not just covering my big white ass here), I had wanted to elaborate more on the fact that scientists, across the board, are "less in it" for the money than other professions, if only so people don't say I'm falling into stereotypes. I know that if I could make a living - not extravagent, but enough to get by - doing something I love in science, I'd be all for it. I just don't know if a lot of others are in it because they truly believe in what Insert Concept Here stands for. I assure you there are a lot of artists in it for the money, although there are many for the art, too. Wow, I am vague.

And on the subject of biology to social behaviors?

Rats, foiled again. ;) Good points, and I always realize how dumb I am when I talk science with you. :)

Look, smiley faces!

[info]firebyrd

July 18 2005, 22:33:22 UTC 6 years ago

Well, here's where my religious beliefs come in. I think stuff was put here for our benefit and we're supposed to be stewards over it. That means we can use it. That means it's fine if we humanely kill an animal to use it for our benefit (like a cow for meet). Of course, that's not even going into how domesticated animals are better off being domesticated and blah blah blah. So, killing non-humans in a reasonable manner=not bad in my opinion. Blatant destruction without at least studying what we might cause problems with=bad, though probably not a killing offense. The point is that we're supposed to be good stewards, and I think, for the most part, we're not doing that.

Meaning is indeed the incorrect word. Purpose or goal works a little better, but isn't entirely correct either, especially since there are plenty o' critters out there that don't pass on their genes and have adapted to be fine with that. Meaning is especially incorrect because most scientists do not accept the fact that anything but us might have intelligence, and how can something have meaning without the ability to grasp that that's what they're working for? If all living things are robots and automatons driven by genes and hormones, how could they possibly have meaning?

Of course, I think that's crap, but I still think you were using a very poor term. :D :O :P :E

Look, smiley faces!

[info]peppygrowlithe

July 18 2005, 23:14:33 UTC 6 years ago

I guess a lot of it just boils down to what the heck "meaning" is. How much you would fight to keep something? That just seems like a flimsy definition at best for the word "value". Are value and meaning the same thing?

I think I want to argue against you with the plenty of critters not passing genes, as if you and I are thinking the same (do we ever?) I'd tell you that they do so indirectly, such as in ants, but A) I'm afraid we're not on the same page and B) I'm sleepy, hence why I'm going to try taking a nap before logging on and stuff. ;)

It's an interesting point you made in the first paragraph, and even not putting religion in the picture, you're at least in part right. We are among the most intelligent species on the planet, and because we are the only ones with such a widespread power to destroy nature, it's our obligation to protect things that we would destroy. Oh, I also think domesticated animals have it better too. And that humane killing > non. :)

Zz...

[info]firebyrd

July 18 2005, 23:29:25 UTC 6 years ago

I don't see indirectly as being the same thing, especially in things like...I think it was some sort of prairie dog or ground hog or something. They'll have "aunts" that will even sacrifice themselves to save young of their siblings. Given how genes work and such, an aunt can have very few genes shared with a niece or nephew, which is quite different from something like bees. And, of course, there's that species of ant that they've recently discovered has two lines-the male and the female and the genes don't interact at all.

[info]kitrona

July 20 2005, 17:49:03 UTC 6 years ago

I'm not religous, but I liked your concept of being a "steward". Being a steward means that, even though we might kill a cow, we're also looking out for their well-being as well as ours. To continue the cow analogy, it means that we feed them the best food available and make sure they're not getting sick or in pain, instead of pumping them full of various hormones and trying to get the most meat out of them. In my mind, it all goes back to the concept of everything being interrelated. You take care of the cows, they'll take care of you, in the sense that when you eat a steak made from a cow that's been well-taken-care-of, you won't get any strange diseases or (for lack of a better term right now) side effects from the hormones pumped into the cow.

I hope that made sense. :) Take care of your world and it'll take care of you...

[info]firebyrd

July 20 2005, 21:57:18 UTC 6 years ago

Exactly! If we take care of it, it's alright for us to use it. Even without the religious aspect, it makes sense. After all, we did domesticate things like cows, without which there wouldn't likely be many around.

[info]bouteillebleu

July 18 2005, 22:36:50 UTC 6 years ago

Vegetarians who eat simply because they don't want to hurt animals kill plants instead, the big moral issue being that animals can think and plants can't. Last time I checked, sentience isn't the only thing that's determining whether something is alive.

And that's why, if I could (be bothered to) raise my own animals well and kill them quickly and humanely, I'd eat meat. (Plus it'd taste better if it was well-reared. And mmm, bunny burgers. ;)

And the mention you made (somewhere near the end of the post) about communism not working outside pure theory - that's partly because you have to get people involved. Specifically, a small number of people have to start the revolution to overthrow the previous government (well, someone has to organise it, after all, and too many people leads to nothing getting done), and once those small number of people have overthrown the last government they're unlikely to want to relinquish the power they now have.

(I keep myself sane in the face of these concerns by being somewhat cynical. It sometimes makes me wish I could do something useful with my life, but I'm too introverted to want to make much of a fuss.)

As for what you say about human social behaviour being not remotely concrete, that seems to tie in with what you say about science later on - I suppose it's not so interesting because it can't be scientifically studied. I think I read a recent post by [info]theferrett which mentioned this - there are so many factors involved in social interaction that you can't design an experiment to control even one variable, like you can in chemistry or physics (to some approximation). You'd need to have raised the people involved yourself, in controlled environments.

Apologies for addressing only one or two of the points you raised - I've thought about this stuff myself before, but usually stop after a while and do something else. The reason I don't think about this too much is that it's a problem (or at least a puzzle) I can't solve, and so thinking about it only makes me frustrated. I wish more things were easily soluble, but when you have to take into account people and their reactions to events, problems get a whole lot more difficult.

In essence, humans are very complicated and un-understandable, and I have written far too much and not come to a point. And used a totally inappropriate icon too. :)

[info]peppygrowlithe

July 18 2005, 23:19:54 UTC 6 years ago

Hey, the icon was appropriate! It dealt with vegetables, like the first paragraph. :)

The paragraph about communism reminds me highly, of course, of Animal Farm, as it should. It's a big shame that societies are so very apathetic, but in honestly, I do care more about my video games, my social life, my job than I do about any number of more widespread but "distant" factors. Kind of terrible, isn't it?

On the science thing, admittedly, I suppose I am sort of a "sap for safety". I like knowing that if I add Chemical A to Chemical B, I get Chemical C, because I feel like I can branch off of there more easily. I can make conclusions that may or may not be exactly correct, but they do, at least, have some template. In the social studies, I find this template doesn't seem to exist, due in no small part to the fact that sometimes people don't like to see that in the very end, we're complex, we're different, but we're not that different. Myself excluded, of course, because I'm a four-headed marshmallow.

No, really. :)

[info]orcanta

July 18 2005, 23:41:00 UTC 6 years ago

I'm diving in. ;p

o I can't say that killing is wrong or killing is bad. It depends on the situation and for the greater good. To run with your example, killing Saddam won't bring people back to life or right wrongs so don't do it. Anything else is being as violent as he.

o I'd like to think I respect most living things, again, if it's for the greater good. I go out of my way to save moths, shadflies or wasps, but kill flies and mosquitoes because they plague animals and people with disease.

o The reason why you may think people are boring and animals predictable is because animals can't tell us we're way off the mark. They're can be as unpredictable as people can be predictable ;)

"I could probably be convinced easily that the destruction of the rainforests is not necessarily a bad thing. It's furthering economy in both America and other countries."

o Short scale, yeah there's a benefit to ravaging the forests, but not a long term one. It's a negative at the end of the day with erosion, loss of millions of species, potential medicines, and the destruction of a culture, etc.

"Ever wish you could just "know"? Wish that you knew the truth?"

o All the time! But truth can be ambiguous since it's open to so many interpretations. And the may truth change (remember the Earth being flat suddenly changed to being round? Well, slightly oblique..) Live how you think a good life should be like. Know what you can do and what you can't. Love the power you have and can do with your own two hands and mind. Changing the world is possible even if it's in a microcosm. Ghandi said, and I follow this, you must be the change you wish to see in the world.

"And then me internally wondering if the rape of the Everglades truly is an issue that does, should, and can concern me, then wondering what I can do to help without regretting it..."

o I concerns us all. Check for organizations out there you can donate money or something towards. Volunteer? Tell your friends about it, start a money jar or a car wash.

[info]magicalfencer

July 19 2005, 04:49:02 UTC 6 years ago

I basically came up with my replies on a case-by-case basis, so you've probably already addressed some of the issues I'm responding to.

"Before I could fully even work all this out, I moved into a subject that interests me more. This sort of ignorance is just as easily displayed in our treatment of non-human life. The most popular religion in America even revolves around us and only us having souls, after all. We happily rape the Earth without respect not just for the fluffy and cute animals, but for every little living thing."
Red flag! I'm sure I'm just reading into a connotation and, in return, using a counterpoint I consider abstract myself, but: in Genesis, it only said that man was put in charge of the Earth. It's not ours for endless consumption. God gave it to us and we'd better darn well take care of it. Not everyone holds that view, but it's certainly mine.

"Does anybody get what point I'm making? It's not that we should treat every little thing with love and compassion; it's that we shouldn't be hypocritical in making our decisions. You need to work out your values and think them through, particularly for the things you hold most dear in your life (be it politics, religion, social relationships, or anything). People who hunt animals every weekend but protest in front of abortion clinics make no sense to me. Big-time corporation owners who cut dozens of jobs so they can have a more expensive vacation and yet go to church devoutly every Sunday make no sense to me. Those who say they value life but only do it because it seems like "the right thing to do"..."
This is what I'd call knee-jerk absolutism. The guy who goes hunting on the weekends and pickets abortion clinics has separate rules governing human and animal life in his mind. The corporate downsizer who goes to church regularly... well, I don't like him any better than you do. Moving on...

"I'd be lying if I said scientists weren't in it for the money (major props to the first person who can cheaply cure AIDS), but it seems, at least from this outside perspective, that scientists care more deeply about the power of knowledge and the study of the world than most other professions do about their particular crafts."
I just disagree with you on principle on this one. I'm planning to go into an entirely trivial industry, and I care deeply about my (future) work. Sure, there's a lot of... disillusionment, I guess, in a lot of careers, but I guarantee that happens in the sciences as well. I'm sure it's awe-inspiring to be working on the cure for AIDS, but how much enthusiasm can you dredge up for coming up with a new blue dye that doesn't run in the wash?

As for my own opinion... economics dictates that regardless of whether or not we should decide who lives and who dies, we will. We will do whatever benefits us most, according to our own rules of rationality. Whether or not we should, we can and we will decide whether or not it's profitable for Person X to continue living. We kill those millions of bacteria because it benefits us. We clear-cut the rainforest because it benefits us (in the short run, at least).

...man, why is it that I always come back to the fundamental economics theorem when I get into these meaning-of-life debates?
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